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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Aug 23, 2008 6:20pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

72 was about creating magic - 77 about execution - True or False?

Let the debate begin - give some examples with your opinion - God knows there are many in each.

This should get the forum back to music - I'll get off my olimpic butt for a few rounds





This post was modified by Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer on 2008-08-24 01:20:41

Attachment: 196704xx_01691.jpg

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Aug 24, 2008 12:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Question doesn't make sense.... '72 is an extremely tight year, and there are very few '72 shows that feel sloppy or loose (whereas in late '77 they seem to be slipping in some shows) - so in that sense '72 is all about execution.

They did have more new songs in '72 - the big set-2 jams were so groundbreaking they could be called new material too. '77 also seems stiff to me in comparison - the band doesn't go 'outside' as often, and they're a lot less agile. It has been said that Keith Olsen's demands for studio practice did make for well-rehearsed sets, which is probably true for the new Terrapin songs. (But then Europe '72 is practically a studio album as well!)

What's with the comment about the Dead's "well-known aversion to rehearsals"? Maybe that was the case in their burnt-out later days when they were writing hardly any new songs and avoiding the studio, but it's not true of their first decade. Even leaving aside the constant rehearsals of the '60s, this band had spent the whole first half of '75 rehearsing Blues for Allah, another big chunk of time in '77 for Terrapin, plus countless hours practicing for the '76 shows. The Dead could not have sounded like they did without being rehearsal-crazy. But again, those habits probably changed after '77.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Aug 27, 2008 7:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

You could really make the argument that BOTH years were stellar examples of creation and execution.

1972 ushered in a wealth of new material--songs that had yet to appear on a studio release like "Jack Straw", "Ramble", "He's Gone", etc., and the shows themselves, as evidenced by the entire Europe '72 run, the Stanley Theater NJ shows, and Veneta in August, are all extremely tight and well-played.

But the same is true of 1977: Excellent new material emerges from the Terrapin Station release--songs that would remain staples of the band's live shows right up til the end. The shows themselves are--to my mind--the BEST in terms of fluidity combined with tightness; relaxed presentations that also provide spell bounding moments up jamming fury.

The May '77 shows reflect the "Perfect Brothers" aspect of execution...the June Winterland run and late fall shows like my favorite 10/29/77 and the December Winterland run to end the year showcase the hard rocking fury.

You can't go wrong with either year, IMO...but I would not say one is more "creative" or "tight" than the other.

I would only argue that 1977 wins out by a nose in the end b/c you have the added gravy of hearing a lot of those 1972 songs in greater expanded versions (think "Jack Straw" with its more intense jams) in addition to the new songs like "Estimated" "samson" and "Terrapin."

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 23, 2008 7:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

True.

Ha--yep, you can only get silver in this one as my Gold Medal Ass is bigger than big...

Go team!

I would add that 68 was even more magical...but that's my old broken record.

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Poster: rastamon Date: Aug 23, 2008 9:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

68 was even more magical?
you'd have to be an old fuck to know that...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 23, 2008 10:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

An old and increasingly fat fuck...

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Poster: rastamon Date: Aug 24, 2008 8:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

hey I'm trying to lose weight!!!! Hell, in 68 I was on an Island far-far a-way! Rockin to the しゃみせん music

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Aug 24, 2008 1:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Hello "Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer:" Honestly, I believe the entire "Grateful Dead" phenomena always had the element of "magic" present. Is it possible you mean that '72 was more "spontaneous?" Also, any chance you can define "execution" for me? [...trust me, I alao understand if you decide to just ignore this response...}

Thanks for the post --- ...now I'm goin' to listen to "Dark Star > Brokedown-Palace" from 1972-09-16 [Boston].

--- AshesRising

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Poster: Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer Date: Aug 24, 2008 3:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

My focus was more on creating than magic. I agree there is magic to be found everywhere across the years. It just seems like you can feel the creativity happening in 72 - compared to say 71, wereas 77 seems stiff if you stay in that time period too long. Nothing seems rushed and most nights, the jams are mined for all they could get.

Take for example this DS>SM>C from early 72:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd72-04-08.sbd.giles-jeffm.2534.sbeok.shnf



IMO 73 / 74 is a peak which started with addition of kieth and really took off into full flight in 72.

This post was modified by Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer on 2008-08-24 10:44:21

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Poster: AshesRising Date: Aug 26, 2008 8:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Old_NJ_Head_Zimmer: ...thanks for the link. I like the band during that period when just Billy was playin' and Keith was on the keys. ...for whatever reason(s), it feels like there was more room for them to explore the universe.

I apologize it took so long to respond; gotta rely on the kindness of strangers for laptop & internet access nowadaze.

Be well,
--- AshesRising

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Poster: Ole Uncle John Date: Aug 24, 2008 4:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

"IMO 73 / 74 is a peak which started with addition of kieth and really took off into full flight in 72."

Here here! Old folks agree, pre-retirement Dead rocked.

77 is a great repository of well played songs though.Best first sets (ok post 69)were in 77 IMHO.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 24, 2008 9:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Interesting perspective; never gave much thought to the differences in sets across eras, but can see your point. Again, though I never listen to them these days, I did see all my shows in the 70s/early 80s, and recall 77 fitting your hypothesis.

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Poster: stratocaster Date: Aug 24, 2008 9:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

It's a draw, both are awarded Gold medals, 72 and 77 could be argued as the 2 best years fo the Dead, thus they display both elements of creation and execution...

72 is one of, if not the, tightest year of the Dead, the Dead have said it themselves that they can only go out and play, the magic finds them...this x-factor has been with them for the good part of their 30 year run...the Europe run 1972 is tight as hell, studio quality, the summer and fall brought experimentation but a show like 09-28-1972 or 11-19-1972 will show you just how locked in they were with execution throughout...

1977 had different dynamics to it...big year for execution as well, electric piano and mutron pedals came onto the scene, new songs had this new epic Terrapin sound...magic was found left and right...

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Poster: SkyDawg Date: Aug 23, 2008 8:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

I remember reading something by Dennis McNally (I believe) and it was suggested that the shows from around 1977 were tighter due to the amount of rehearsals that the Dead's record producer Keith Olsen demanded from the band during the recording of the Terrapin Station studio album. The band's new record label wanted something "slick" for lack of a better word and that required more discipline from the band in the form of rehearsals. I don't know how true that may be, but it could account for the tighter "execution" you refer to since the new songs like Terrapin and Estimated were fairly complex compositions. It would also account for the band choosing someone else (Lowell George) to produce their next album. The Dead's aversion to rehearsing is well known, and as we know from listening, the 1978 shows were considerably looser in execution than the 1977 shows were.
The material in 1972 was mostly new stuff and had to be "created" in a live setting since few of the newer songs had ever been taken into the studio and hammered out.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Aug 23, 2008 10:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Probably true; I certainly think you can notice the times in the early days when the shows benefit from the recent studio efforts (eg, Jan and Feb of 70, spring of 71)...makes sense, esp on vocals.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Aug 23, 2008 6:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Well i think they were both magic but yes '77 was more about execution.

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Poster: Morning Dewd Date: Aug 24, 2008 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 72 Creation vs 77 Execution ?????

Both years were exceptionally well played. I prefer the song selections of the shows in '72 (no Dark Star and only one China/Rider in '77).I preferred the older arrangements of songs such as TLEO, Dancin', and St. Stephen ( I know, poor examples, none of these was played in '72). Although all my shows were attended between '83 - '95, my listening stays between '68 - '74 these days (for the most part).

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